SPEAKER_00 0:37

Welcome to this week's episode. Well, it's actually, we're not even doing this weekly, right? Um, this, this, this, well, let's say this month's. Let's start over, okay? You clip me from this point. Uh, welcome to this month's episode of the Episcopalian podcast. I'm Dr. Ryan Partovi.

SPEAKER_03 0:57

I am Angie Ambor.

SPEAKER_00 0:59

And today we're going to be talking about several different things. We're talking about Lent, our experiences of it. We're going to talk about formation, uh, which for those who don't know or are new to the Episcopalian landscape basically means Christian education. Um, but we may can talk about the why we use the term formation. I think there's good reasons. Um and what was the other thing, Ann? Help me out here.

SPEAKER_03 1:24

Lint.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Lint. Yeah, we I said, yeah, we we got I think we're good then. Let's start with Lint.

SPEAKER_03 1:30

Yeah, today's Good Friday. And so it's it is. We're recording on Good Friday. Yeah, and um, what a great day to talk about the idea of formation and um what we got out of Lent. So I'm excited.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

Okay, great. Um, so Lent is obviously a time for um self-reflection. It's also a time for self-denial, it's also a time for you know, getting present to our own mortality. It's getting it's also a time for getting present to the gift of salvation we've been given in Christ Jesus. It's also an opportunity to um get closer to Jesus in our experience of life um and his suffering. Um, anything else you want to add to that?

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Well, I agree. And last time I kind of want to pull in what we talked about last time on our podcast, and we talked about Anglicanism in general and the beauty and your vision statement that you wrote for the podcast, and the beauty, um, truth, and the storic aspects of our faith and our tradition. And so what we're talking about is the is how Anglican worship can form you over time. And and Lent is is so intentional in the Episcopal Church, the way we do Lent. Um, you know, there's six weeks leading up to Easter, and we've got this really beautiful liturgy for holy week.

SPEAKER_00 3:14

It's actually 40 days, total 40 days.

SPEAKER_03 3:18

I think it's 40 days, 40 days, and so we've got this wonderful, we've got this wonderful holy week starting on Palm Sunday, and we are bringing in the king, right? We've got Jesus coming in on the donkey, we've got all the palms, everyone's excited, and then immediately as soon as we walk in those doors on Palm Sunday, the the mood changes, right? We immediately go into talking about the passion gospel in that liturgy. So we go from celebration into the Christ's Passion, and it's it's a stark contrast. And um I know a lot of people get emotional during that service. So I don't know. How does that how does it strike you? What what strikes you during Lent?

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Well, um, yeah, I mean, I really I love um all the liturgies, although as as I had just confessed to you, I've never actually attended the Monday Thursday Lent, uh Monday Thursdays uh service.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Why?

SPEAKER_00 4:24

Well, you know, I mean, I think growing up, uh, I never did the whole Holy Week. We always did Palm Sunday and Easter Sunday, and that was it. You know, I mean, we were very much uh high holy holidays Episcopalians growing up, and so um I think that as I have gotten older, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna add in Good Friday because that's a really important day. And so I've done that. Um, but that's been it so far. I think my next step, and then I've never also attended an Easter vigil because I'm like, well, I'm gonna be here tomorrow morning. What's the point? Also, also I have young kids, right? I know I'm horrible, but I have young kids, that's my big excuse. So I have to kind of get ready for Easter. So anyway, and also our Easter visuals are kind of late. So all of those variables. I mean, I could probably come myself, but then I'd be leaving my wife high and dry to deal with one. That doesn't go very well. Um, but I could do Monday Thursday, but there's no reason why I couldn't do Monday Thursday. So maybe that'll be my discipline next year to make sure I attend that. Um typically I fast all day on Good Friday, though, uh, which is a medieval tradition. I'm not doing that today uh because I am going to Mass. See, before I used to go to Good Friday Mass, I would fast all day on Good Friday. That was kind of my substitutionary, like it's from the time I was confirmed, I would I would do that every year. I was confirmed a little late. I was confirmed it was 19 or 20, I want to say. It was it was late because I had come back from college like itching to get confirmed. Um so um, yeah, I mean, I think that uh that's the why behind that. But I would just say uh I'll have to do it because you told me I missed out. So apparently I need to.

SPEAKER_03 6:18

Yeah, yeah. I want to encourage you not only to go to Monday, Thursday next year, but to go to all the entire all of the services during Holy Week next year.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Wow. Your boys are old enough now. They're old enough, okay.

SPEAKER_03 6:33

Yeah, you've got to it because Monday, Thursday, and Good Friday are actually one service.

SPEAKER_00 6:39

Yeah, I I know that. I know that.

SPEAKER_03 6:42

And then so their bookends for each other. You know after at the end of Monday Thursday, we there's no dismissal. Um, we just we clear off the entire altar and strip the altar, and then all of the altar service people just leave. There's no procession out, we just walk away, and then the congregation just leaves in silence, also. And so it's kind of weird, right? Because we're just we just stopped. Everything just stops, there's no, you know, finale, and then this this morning or at noon today, when we go to our Good Friday service, we're going to continue that service. Um, it's it's really beautiful. So I you've got to go. You gotta go. You gotta go. Come on, what are you talking about?

SPEAKER_00 7:33

All right. No, I mean, I'm I'm I'm open to it. I'm totally willing. Um, it's more just a matter of logistics and you gotta talk to my wife. That's what I would say. Which I know you have no problem doing. So that's good.

SPEAKER_03 7:46

Um well yeah, a lot of people think of um of worship as something we do to express belief. And when I was in my early, when I was in my early 20s, I was exploring um some other denominations, non-denominational. And um when they learned, when those folks would learn that I was from a liturgical um background church, oh my gosh, it was like I was the devil because um they just they thought that repeating the prayers out of the prayer book and just repeating the same thing over and over and over was um just insincere, you know, like you're not having a real connection with God. However, in my adult life, um, and even as a child, you know, I had that little period of time when I was going to other churches, but I I think that the liturgy really forms us, right? Um do you do you think that's fair? Oh no.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

All right, I'm back. Um, I don't know what happened there. Um we look good now. So the last thing I heard you say, which I hope was recorded, was um that they would look at you as the devil because they saw repeating prayers every week was insincere. And that was the last thing I heard you say.

SPEAKER_03 9:21

Yeah, that that's not a real connection with God if you're just repeating saying prayers out of a prayer book, right? But when I think back to my childhood as an Episcopalian and then as as an adult, repeating those prayers, I feel like um the liturgy is our greatest formation tool and that it is sincere. And I love how we do the liturgy, but what what do you and I have a story that dad dad would always tell too. I want to tell that story, but um what what do you think? Do you think that's fair to say that our liturgy forms us spiritually?

SPEAKER_00 13:49

Okay, so yeah, I I really I'm glad you asked this because I really want to kind of delve into it a little bit and talk about the way I see liturgy, and um and I think that's gonna answer your question about how it's a formation tool. To me, the the two kinds of churches, so the evangelical non-denoms and liturgical churches, um, are really offering different approaches to people, right? Right. Um and I think it's sort of like the evangelical non-denoms are like, we're gonna meet you where you are, and we're gonna kind of try to walk alongside you and take you on this journey, right? And ideally that's a journey toward God, right? Yeah, I think the liturgical churches are really making a different claim. What we're doing is we're saying, well, here's where God is, right? You're wherever you are, right? And there's an opportunity to get closer to God through interacting and interfacing with with the church through the liturgy and all the other methods of formation that we have, right? So it's basically um it's a lot more work, I would say. Uh maybe not more work, but it's it it it calls forth something greater, I think, in the individual to uh attend a liturgical church because they're asked to sort of put their own identity at the door, right? And to basically walk in and say, okay, well, what do I need to take on? What do I need to do? And so the whole process is really a formation, right? It's like, well, as you are getting closer to God, you are getting formed in God's image. I mean, that's the whole case we're making. Um and I think that, you know, to the degree that you find the liturgy inauthentic, make it authentic, right? So basically, the degree to which you're like, oh, somebody else wrote these words, so therefore, when I say them, I'm not being authentic. It's like, no, say them until it's they're an authentic expression for you. Say, I mean, I I actually can share from my own personal experience, like I had some trouble with the Nicene Creed for a long time. Um, because there were like little parts of it that I just, I was like, I'm not sure if I really agree with that, right? But I forget, I forget uh which theologian it was, but basically someone just it might have been C.S. Lewis, but um basically just said it's not about agreeing with it the moment you walk in the door, it's about repeating it enough times until you until you understand it, and then enough times until you become it, right? And to me, I I totally get that now because what I see is that what I have come to understand through repeating it every week, and I grew up, you know, again in this church, I grew up repeating it, but at the same time, you know, as I was in my teens and early 20s and kind of looked at all different options and um and read a lot of different books about different approaches, I began to question certain things. Uh, one example was just the idea that Jesus Christ is the only son of God, right? And I remember this vividly because I'm like, well, are we all sons and daughters of God? Like, how is that right? You know? And now I see it, and it was actually Paul Tillich that helped me see this um, that we are all sons and daughters of God in Jesus Christ, right? So it's only through our connection with Jesus that we are sons and daughters of God. Another way to think about that from the other side would be that Jesus Christ is the God in humanity, right? And so it is through our relationship with Christ that we are we share in his godhood. Now, is that something I was gonna get the moment I walked in the door? No, that was something I had to discover over the course of years, right? Um, and so really that's I think the core distinctive that people often misapprehend or they don't even bother to like take a look at, is it's like, well, really what we're doing is we're saying, look, here's where God is, here's an opportunity to get closer to Him, come find out, come with curiosity, right? Like, why do you guys say the same thing every week? Because guess what? You know, it turns out that there's not only a historical reason, which is that this is what's been done for 2,000 years, and it's it's not only that, you know, every single part of what we say in that liturgy comes directly from scripture, which is another important part of it. And a lot of people in the evangelical side don't necessarily know that. Um and uh it's funny because whenever I'm like in the comment section on YouTube and I mention that to somebody that like, I get at least a few thumbs up, right? Because like people, some people on the Anglican side definitely do know that. But I think a lot of non-Anglicans don't know that. And so I think that uh it's worth mentioning. And it's probably we should have probably started talking about what Lint is, which we talked about a little bit. I had that thought, I was like, oh, yeah, it's 40 days, but we did talk a little bit about it. But it's something that is that evangelical churches don't celebrate Lint at all. I don't know whether you you're aware of this, but like they there's no Lint inside uh if you are in a non-liturgical church, they're like, what's Lint? Oh, that's a Roman Catholic thing. That's kind of the comment that I typically will get. And it's like, no, that's actually a Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant thing. It's just that you guys, you know, and and I I come from sort of the the school of thought that says if you're in an evangelical non-denominational church, that's not really the same as Protestant. You know, Protestant is like people who can who can trace their lineage directly to, you know, Queen Elizabeth, Zwingli, Calvin, Luther, uh you know, I'm sure I'm leaving somebody out, but you know, the the great reformers uh of the um of the Protestant Reformation, the Anabaptists, right? If you can trace your lineage back to that, then you're a Protestant church. If you're like Billy Joe Bob's non-denominational that started last month, um that is not Protestant. That's a new thing that really started as a result of the Great Awakening in the United States, where they're starting to get these ideas of like, well, each each man is kind of his own church. And, you know, one of the critiques of Protestantism is well, the ultimate, like Protestantism taken to its extreme, is that everybody becomes their own church, to which I would say that's why you need things like liturgy and uh hierarchy, apostolic succession, etc. Uh, because it it's the counterweight to that that tendency of Protestantism, which is every every person is their own church. And I think that um, but yeah, I kind of went beyond the scope of your question as I'm wont to do. But um, yeah, I think that it's a it's a good question. Um, and I think absolutely the process of being uh an Anglican is the process of being formed in the image of in the image of Christ, and and you know, and it's an ongoing process, right? Uh it never ends.

SPEAKER_03 22:01

Yeah. Right. Well, okay, so you said we didn't really talk about what Lent is, um, since we're closing the season of Lent um here currently. Today is Good Friday 2026. Um tell tell me, tell me what what is Lent? What I mean.

SPEAKER_00 22:27

Well, yeah, I mean, Lent is the time where we prepare for Easter. And it's a time where we think about our sins, we repent our sins, we um you know we go through several opportunities for penance and reconciliation. Um you know, we um uh it's an opportunity to sort of get things right with your neighbor, to get things right with God, and to sort of you know prepare yourself penitently, like like and and sort of almost ritualistically, really, for what's coming in Easter, which is the resurrection, right? The rebirth, literal, literal rebirth of Jesus Christ. It's like people, I I've seen this meme going around right now, which is pretty good. It's like, you know, the the crucifixion teaches us that Jesus Christ was fully human, and the resurrection, the rebirth, is what teaches us that Jesus Christ was fully God. So uh I like that meme. And what I would say is that Lent is really the opportunity to participate in the passion and death of Jesus Christ. So you're we're going along with Jesus throughout that whole process and through Holy Week, as you mentioned, like we're actually following along the whole story, and then so that on Easter Sunday, it's like we are participating also in the resurrection and the rebirth. And that's really what that what the beauty of that liturgy is. Um, you know, speaking of liturgy and formation, it's like really if you're getting to every year, you know, sort of relive, reenact, re-participate in the passion, which is basically the define passion as you understand it. Because I remember as a kid growing up in the Episcopal Church, I was like, why do we call it the passion? Do you know the answer to that? Um tradition.

SPEAKER_03 24:26

I don't know the answer to that, but it's um I'm sure there's some sort of etymological root to the word you know, in Latin or something that I don't know off the top of my head. But um we are passionate. I mean, I'm thinking too, I actually have to look that up because you know we've got because we have Passover, right? We've got that, there's got to be some kind of Latin route to that. But I am just in a general, you know, American vernacular, I mean, the emotions that come up for the for the pe for the congregants who are participating in that, I mean, people people cry. I mean, there's a lot, it is there's a lot of emotion that comes up because in our liturgy, we as a congregation stand up and say, crucify him, crucify him, right? We take on that role of the Jews in that that gospel um story. And you know, when you have to say that out loud um and realize that Christ died for your sins, that you are part of that, that um it's still ongoing, it's past, present, and future, that is um that is it's terrifying and and beautiful all at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 26:04

Um that's very well said.

SPEAKER_03 26:06

One thing did you look it up?

SPEAKER_00 26:09

I did look it up, yeah. I got it here. So um it actually comes from the Latin uh which is uh patty, which means suffer. Um, and then um basically that became passio, which is also Latin, and then that became uh old English and Old French, it you know, kind of took a took on the word passio for suffering, and then passion. So basically it's literally, you know, it and then it it's literally the suffering and death. The suffering and death, it's like that that suffering and and death, and then that became euphemized over the course of centuries to mean sort of any strong and barely controllable emotion. Uh so like it's now now refers to like intense anything, intense love, intense anger, deep enthusiasm, zeal. Um, but but it sort of started as suffering, which is like if you think about it, I mean, romance, romance can lead to suffering. I mean, love, especially unrequited or you know, frustrated, can be can be absolutely cause suffering. Anger, I mean, shh, I mean, Master Yoda, you know, uh hate leads to suffering. I mean, he's that's uh very accurate. So look, I think that um I think that there's it makes a lot of sense, but go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 27:33

It's cool too, because in our we're talking about the liturgy, and um, but in our lectionary during the six weeks leading up to Easter, we go through um first talking about the prophets, the prophets that were pointing to Jesus. Um, so we read those stories in in our liturgical year. Um, then we read the stories about um Jesus uh his 40 days in the wilderness. We read the stories about him, you know, uh being a child and going into the um into the temple, like getting lost and away from his his parents, and his parents didn't know where he was. And um, they were like, Where we were looking all over for you, where were you, kid? And he said, Well, didn't you know I'd be in my father's house? And all of the um the priests and scribes that were there were just fascinated by this kid, right? And um, and so, and then of course, then we've got the Palm Sunday um readings, the Passion, and so then we come to the resurrection on Easter, and so during that season of Lent, we get all of these stories sequentially that are really important to the understanding and the preparation of our understanding. Now, how many people pick up on that, you know, just in the general population, and they don't zone out during sermons or whatever? I don't know. But the still the liturgy is attempting to form us, right?

SPEAKER_00 29:13

I gotta say something about what you just said about the zoning out, right? Like I found growing up that I would tend to zone out as a kid a lot, and then as I got older, I would like to zone in more and more. And then sometimes even now with kids, like I'll zone out because I'll be like dealing with them. But it's like that is part of it. That's why we do it every year, because it's like, oh, I'm not gonna miss it because I'll get it again next year. And guess what? Sometimes I get it again in a whole new way because I'm at a different stage of my life, and so I hear it totally differently. And that's one of the things people miss is it's like um when you're getting the same distinctions, you're getting the same story, you're getting the same um you're going through the same experience, but you're doing it at a different time of your life, it's gonna land differently and you're gonna get different things out of it. And it's gonna deepen and enrich your whole experience of those things because you're gonna just be like, wow, how cool is this? Like, I'm doing something I've done 20, 20, 30, 40 times before, but I'm getting new stuff out of it. Like, if that's not experiencing the presence of God, I mean, it's like, I don't know what is. I mean, to me, that's really I absolutely experience like what what I what my wife likes to call God winks in those moments where it's like, oh, look, there he is again, you know?

SPEAKER_03 30:42

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:43

And I just I get chills, you know.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

So it's great.

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Well, um you were gonna tell us the story that your dad likes to tell. Yeah, dad.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

Okay, so everybody who's a parishioner at our church knows his story. So I'm not I'm not outing him or anything. But dad, when I was growing up, um, dad was a a doctor, he had his own practice, he was pediatrician in a small town, and so every kid that I went to school with knew my dad because he was the only pediatrician, right? And um he had a radio show, he was on the school board, so he was in politics, and and and his parents were also very active in the community. And um, so you know, I can still go back to that town and check into the hotel, and the the receptionist at the hotel will say, Oh my gosh, your dad saved my my life when I was a baby, or you know what I mean? So like he he was a big fish in a small pond, let's say. Now, you know, he was a young guy, um, young, attractive doctor, and he was doing um, you know, doing life, trying to be, trying to be who he was. And he didn't go to church with us. So my grandmother actually was Episcopalian. She invited my mother to come to church with her at the Episcopal Church because my mom was Roman Catholic. And she said, you know, I think you're gonna really like the service. Just come, come see. And my mom fell in love with that service the first time she was there. So she started taking us kids, me and my brother, to church. And we got involved, and you know, um, I was an acolyte and we went to Sunday school and all the things. And dad didn't go to church with us. He was tired on Sundays. He was a doctor, he was on call a lot. He would go in the middle of the night to the hospital and deliver babies or, you know, have to do an emergency surgery. So the last thing he wanted to do on Sunday morning was wake up and go to church. Well, he finally decided that that was a really bad image. You know, here he is being a big, big fish in a small pond, and he's on the school board and he's doing all this stuff, and he has a radio show, but he doesn't go to church with his wife and children. So he starts going. Oh, and he was a real close horse, by the way. You'd never know it now, but he had like really nice designer suits and all the, you know, he was he had nice clothes. Um so anyway, he started going to church with us, uh, not because he wanted to go to church, but because he thought it would be a good look. He needed to be seen with his family and he just went. I remember him sitting back there, sat in the back row, and I just remember him watching me acolyte, and he was just, I don't know what was going on with him. But then he says the story he tells is that the liturgy changed him. That just the process of sitting there, completely insincere, that it changed him to the point where he ended up quitting his practice, um, selling off of his business, selling his house. And we he took us to seminary, and we went to seminary when I was 13. He became an episcopal priest. Um, so I think that's a great uh testament to the power of the liturgy. And um, I just love that story. I love that he tells it, and and he's so self-deprecating when he tells it too. He's like, look, I was a jerk. Um, but the liturgy really changed me. So have you heard him tell that story?

SPEAKER_00 34:23

I have not. I think I've heard you mention it before, but I've not heard him tell the story. So maybe maybe we could have him on sometime and he would uh regale us.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Oh, if only. Oh, if only so one of one of the things in Anglican um theology is this concept of lex arandi, lex credendi. We do you know what that means?

SPEAKER_00 34:47

I do.

SPEAKER_03 34:48

Do you want to talk about it?

SPEAKER_00 34:49

Um it means we pray what we believe.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

No, it means we is that right?

SPEAKER_03 34:56

We pray what we believe and we believe what we pray.

SPEAKER_00 34:59

And we believe what we pray, right? It's kind of the same thing.

SPEAKER_03 35:01

Yeah. And so I yeah, I think that's pretty cool, you know, when you're talking about the prayers in the prayer book and the book of common prayer, um, which is central to our way of being Episcopalian and Anglican, um, is that we have a common language, right? And we've got a lot of our prayer book is really cool. Um, did you know our psaltery is a little bit different than what's in the revised standard version of the Bible, the Psalms? That it was written by it was written by a poet. Um I'm forgetting the name, it's uh Auden, A-U-D-E-N, but I can't remember his first name. Anyway, it was a poet, wrote our psaltery and a lot of our prayers. Um it's really it's it's kind of like a a school schooling us on how to pray, you know, with that theological depth and and our daily prayer rhythm and our daily office.

SPEAKER_00 36:05

So I just think it's well, and there's you know there's a lot in there, also just I mean, the the creeds are all three creeds are in there. Um there's a catechism in the back that most people don't know exists, right? Um, you know, there's it's a very um useful and weighty thing. And uh and one of the things that I think people um wonder about is like why do you need to have a prayer book when you know you just have the Bible? Like what is what is the prayer book adding that you can't just get from the Bible and then making up your own prayers? Like what what do you see as beyond what we've already talked about? But just like what when people say about the prayer book in particular, like why is that important to you?

SPEAKER_03 37:07

Yeah, well, first of all, the it the prayer book is the Bible. It's not the Bible, right? But the all of the prayers in the Bible or in the prayer book come from the Bible, right? I mean, every single one of them. They're not just made up. And uh, so that's important to understand that it is biblical. It's important because it's common, and this could lead us down a tangent about the Episcopal Church, actually. But um the repeating those prayers week after week really shapes uh a person, just like my dad's story. And the having a common language, I think, is so powerful because not only are we all in that room together, um in the in that congregation saying the same thing uh together, but everybody else is saying the same thing in our in our worldwide communion. And beyond that, I would say other liturgical churches uh are saying similar things, right? If you go to Roman Catholic service, it's very similar to what we do in the Episcopal Church. Um, you know, the Methodist Church, the the Presbyterian Church, the Lutheran Church. There we are all commonly saying pretty much the same prayers. And how powerful is that that all of that's being lifted up to God as a unified voice in today's world? And I love the tradition piece that this is something that has been passed down right and handed to us from our ancestors, and that we can carry it for a time and pass it on to our children. Um, do you have any thought? Do you have I have a whole tangent that I could go down though about the prayer book and the Episcopal Church currently? So I don't want to go there.

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Well, yeah, I and I think I kind of can Yeah, I I think I kind of know where you're going with that. But before we do that, I think um the importance of what you said about everyone praying, I mean, hundred and ten million Anglicans worldwide praying roughly the same prayers every single day, uh, in most cases, you know, um is really powerful. And basically adding that to what the Roman Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox and you know the Syrian Church of the East and also the Lutherans and the Moravians and the Dutch Reformed and the um to some degree, I'm sure the Methodists and the uh Presbyterians as well are praying. I think is did I leave anybody out? Somebody's gonna be upset. But I think that's pretty much uh you know the the big ones. I think that um it is powerful to think that that's you know basically what we're all praying together. And the thing I like about it is that in a lot in a lot of those other traditions, I know in the Roman Catholic Church there is the Roman Missal, but like only the priest really gets a copy, right? Or deacon, right? The people don't have a copy of it, and so one of the things I like about it is that we actually get to see what is what the priest is gonna say, what the bishop is gonna say, and we can follow along. And then that to me increases the participatory element of the mass. You know, when you when I go to Roman Catholic Mass, and of course I do because my wife's family is Roman Catholic, um, my experience is that I'm more of a spectator, right? Like I'm here to watch. And I know that they tried to change that to some degree in Vatican II, and I think it's probably better than it used to be in that regard. But I think that what draws me into the service the most is like being able to follow along and know what's coming and not have that, you know, sort of devil may care idea about, or that's not that's not the right term. It's laissez faire, is what I'm thinking of. The sort of laissez faire, well, if I get the responses right or not, it doesn't really matter because I'm just here to watch, basically, and then to go up and receive communion when it's time to do that. But like it doesn't really matter if I'm I'm I get all the responses right or whatever, which is kind of my experience in the Roman church. Whereas to me, the book of common prayer is like you really want to follow along and you want to join the prayer and you want to be part of it. And that to me is is one of the beauty of the get, like you said, the book of common prayer, right? Is this something we all share in common that it's it's not just the heritage of the church, but it's the heritage of each and each and every one of us as Episcopalians, as Anglicans. So yeah, I mean, to me, I think that the um and I know that some of the other Protestant, you know, historical Protestant denominations have something similar, um, but uh it's something I I've always found is kind of on the Orthodox Catholic side, I feel like as a uh somebody who's a visitor to those those traditions, it's more difficult. And it also because they don't have that, and I also think it also gives us the nice option, which I think is kind of fun, which I think that because they don't have that, they're sort of locked into doing the same exact thing every week. Whereas we have the option for like different Eucharistic prayers that come from different traditions. We can use like Eucharistic prayer D D, which comes from like I think it's called the Alexandrian or Alexandrite uh rite that comes from like the Eastern Orthodox. It's one of the oldest um Eucharistic prayers that we know of. And then we also can do like, or we could do like the Serum Rite, you know, one week, which is the old um, you know, Celtic uh pre-Latin English church rite, and uh, or you know, and there's other options. So um, and that's a great segue to what you were wanting to talk about, which is the idea that if we expand the Book of Common Prayer, I think, which is what they've now done, they've said, well, basically anything that the general convention says is approved is now part of the Book of Common Prayer. There's not like a set book anymore. And I honestly think that that was before I let you say anything about that, I gotta tell what I saw what I think about that, which is I think, sorry, Ann, which is that I think that this was an attempt to placate people who wanted to change or update the prayer book without actually updating the prayer book. Because it's like, oh, you can use this thing if you want to, and you're gonna have some parishes that use a bunch of this new stuff, and you're gonna have some parishes that are like, we don't do any of that new stuff, right? And the beautiful thing is I really hope what this does is it keeps the 1979 prayer book in the pews because it's a fantastic prayer book. It really doesn't need any revision, in my view. Um, I think you can have some selective, you know, we've always Had lesser feasts and fasts. We've always had, I think there's another book which is supplemental. To me, you can have supplemental liturgies for more boutique kind of things, whether that be blessing of same-sex marriage, whether that be um, you know, some sort of gender neutral language that you want to have for particular audiences, that kind of thing. But I don't think that that should be because the usage of that should be limited by the virtue of the fact that it applies to maybe at maximum 10% of the population. Right. Um you would expect that they would be used no more than 10% of the time. Does it really need to be in the in the prayer book that is what we're going to be using the other 90% of the time? I would say no, but I'm curious to hear your take on it.

SPEAKER_03 45:25

Well, my problem with what we've got going on in the Episcopal Church right now is that there's churches that just don't even have the prayer book anymore.

SPEAKER_02 45:34

You go I didn't even know that.

SPEAKER_03 45:35

You go in, there's no prayer book in the pew, and they just create their leaflet, which is great, or their service pamphlet, which is great for them because they've changed the language, right? A lot of times they've changed the language in the Nicene Creed or they've added, um, they've taken out the reference to father um throughout. And so, and that way it's not even visible in the prayer book anymore. And so to me, I don't like that because that gets rid of the whole idea of us being common, right? And being unified. And then that creates division because you've got someone, let's say you've got someone coming from a more traditional Anglo-Catholic church and they're visiting and they're going to Taos or whatever, and that and in Taos they're using a completely different style of liturgy, and then you're like, wait a second, this isn't what I normally say.

SPEAKER_00 46:22

Now hold on a second, Ed. Do you know that they're doing that in Taos? Because otherwise we're gonna get hate mail from like the Episcopal Church in Taos being like, we don't.

SPEAKER_03 46:30

Um, well, I've been to the church in Taos and they're great. I love I'm just I'm just okay. Austin. Will you go to church in Austin?

SPEAKER_00 46:39

So anyway, there's um I mean I went to church in Austin last year at St. David's, and um they just use right to. I mean, it was the same old right to as we always have. Um, I that gives me an up, I remind me because I want to give you an update. I did we went to two different uh churches, and even though we're not talking about what church we go to or what diocese we're in, even because we want to keep you know keep all that um uh buttoned up so we can speak more freely. I do want us to share about when we go visit places, uh, because I do because it's fun. I think I so I have an update from Houston because I visited Houston over um uh over spring break with my family. I visited family down there, but that's cool.

SPEAKER_03 47:23

So what the what the Episcopal Church is trying to do is say, you know, we are going to start being so inclusive that we're gonna just let whatever happen, right? Um, and we're I like that that general convention doesn't want to have a strict prayer book revision. I agree with that decision. I think that would absolutely cause more division in the church. And that by allowing these other sort of experimental liturgies happen, you know, and saying, okay, well, if this exists, then it's part of the prayer book. Um okay. Okay, but at what point is the church holding itself steadfast as a church and and taking a stand on what we actually believe in common as a denomination, right?

SPEAKER_00 48:20

Because yeah, again, I think that gets back to like this is where God is. You have an opportunity to come closer to God through that, through this process, which is not always going to be comfortable, or you're not gonna always agree with everything, especially in the beginning. And that's okay, right? Like the the distinction is like all are welcome. We say as Episcopalians, all are welcome. I think they're trying to change that because apparently it's it's considered not uh inclusive enough or something. But I mean, again, and I say again.

SPEAKER_03 48:57

I said, Oh, for heaven's sakes, are you serious?

SPEAKER_00 49:00

Yeah, no, I've heard that it's like it's basically the idea that like when you and I think that to me, all are welcome is the perfect balance because it's like here we are, all our welcome to come experience, all are welcome to come and see, and to to to learn more and to grow in faith alongside us. But I think that there is this desire, and I think it comes from sort of the less orthodox side of the church, arguably, which is basically that like we shouldn't say all are welcome because it doesn't mean we're willing to meet people where they are, which again gets back to what I was talking about with the evangelical non-denoms, and I think why they're so successful, is because they are willing to kind of meet people where they are and kind of bring the elements of the culture to the the to the individual and say, hey, you know, we're just like you, we're right where you are, now let's go on a journey, right? I get it, but it's like that's not who we are. I mean, we're we're the historic ancient Christianity. And if people are interested in that, you know, in in the English expression, in the Anglican expression, if you're you know, if your ancestry is from um, you know, England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland, etc., if your ancestry, if you're um, and yeah, I did say Ireland in there, you know, people are gonna disagree with me, whatever, put it in the comments. Um if your ancestry is or if you speak English, right? If you if English is your first language, right? Like to me, this is the church which is the which is the there's there's a there's a word that's being used a lot right now amongst the Anglican circles online, which is jurisdiction, right? Yeah, it's like which church has jurisdiction over a particular population, right? And in my view, you know, if your ancestry is from the British Isles, Ireland, if your ancestry is um, you know, it or if you you know basically grew up speaking English, you know, this is the church that has jurisdiction over you talking about the one holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. If someone tells me, hey, you know, I'm Spanish, I'm from Spain, or I came from, you know, Spanish area, like, you know, can I go to the Roman Catholic Church because it feels like more like what I should do because it's where I grew up? And it's like, my, I'm like, sure, of course. Like, why wouldn't you? Right? Like that's that's the Catholic Church where where you where you live, where you grew up, right?

SPEAKER_02 51:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:45

In the same way, the Catholic Church where we live and grew up is the Episcopal Church. And I think that's that's a claim which it's like the thing you can't say, right? And I'm saying it because I'm like, we gotta start saying it. Because if we don't, then these people who are these Orthodox churches that are planting, and you know, the the the Romans that come in that are planting and saying, hey, you know, we're the real church, we're the true church. It's like if we're not willing to make that claim on the counter that we're the true church for at least some part of the population, then why would you ever want to be a part of the Episcopal Church? Why would you ever want to be an Anglican if we are not the true church for some group of people? It doesn't make sense. It's like, why wouldn't I just go join the Orthodox or the Roman Catholic or Eastern, you know, Eastern or Inno Orthodox or whatever, right? Yeah. So and I and you know, I wrote a whole substack on our on why you know Anglicanism is English Catholicism, English Orthodoxy, right? And I think people uh who disagree with that, who want to push back on that, come on the podcast, right? Send us a message, say I want to come on and debate you guys, because I'm happy to have that conversation, but I didn't mean to get quite so energized, but you know me. I I get energized sometimes.

SPEAKER_03 53:05

Well, I think it's a good thing to get passionate about, right? Because it's um what else are we here for? You know, it's it's in it's an embarrassment. It is an embarrassment that the Episcopal Church has decided that we're going to just have no beliefs whatsoever. You know, just anything that is out there. I mean, we've got, I'm sorry, but we have Episcopal priests out there who aren't even um professing to believe that Jesus Christ is the is the Son of God. You know, and I don't want to diss I'm I'm trying to draw people into the Episcopal Church, but I don't want to I also want to be transparent about what is going on in certain in certain areas because uh not everybody who's Episcopalian believes believes that. We don't all agree with uh what uh the church is doing, right? And there are some people still in our denomination who want to hold steadfast to our traditions, our book of common prayer, and our the way we have always held held our faith in common. And by ditching the book of common prayer, you're you're ditching that tradition. I feel like you might as well just go and find a different denomination.

SPEAKER_00 54:37

Fair. And I wouldn't call I wouldn't say ditching, but it's basically like um it's expanding it to the point where it's like anything anything goes, right? Anything can be included, and it's like then you you lose exactly what we were talking about earlier. You lose the whole liturgical sense of like this is a 2,000-year-old experience, this is where God is, you get to come closer to that through your interaction with this church. And if if this is God's church, we've got to hold firm, right? If this is Christ's church, that's the only option. If this is man's church, well, then anything goes, right? And so that's really, I think, um where we have to draw the line. And I think that there um yeah, I I think that the um so the change, um, so here we go. I I figured it out. So basically, there's people who feel that welcome, all are welcome, means that the host is tolerating a guest. Whereas they want to change it to you belong here, uh, or all are welcome because all belong. Um, and the the the you belong here part is basically the idea that you know it's it's it's less about toleration and more about you know, everybody is already has a place. And I think the challenge I have with that, it's like yeah, sure, you belong here if you're ready to do what it takes to belong here, right? Like, I don't think everybody comes through the door ready, which is why our liturgy forms us. It's tough, right? Like, I think that I think that if you've come through the door to some degree, you are ready, right? You're you're some level of readiness. But but are you really ready? Well, that's we'll see, right, as you go through an experience. But it's like I I and I disagree with the framing of like welcome means that we're tolerating a guest. Welcome means we're happy to have you here, right? We're happy you're here to experience this treasure, this gift we've been we have been given, all of humanity has been given that we're excited to share with you, right? And so that's what I would say to those who want to change that. I'm like, no, no, no, no, no. First of all, you're reading all our welcome wrong.

SPEAKER_03 57:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:07

Second of all, this idea of belonging, this idea that, like, oh, everyone belongs here because everyone already has a seat. It's like, yeah, if they want it, if there are call for it, if there's actually a willingness to take on what it takes, you know, to be a catechumenate, to go through the process to give you be baptized. And it's not like, and I think this is also happening alongside this trend of like, oh, you don't need to have be baptized to have the Eucharist. I don't know if you're familiar with this trend, right? But it's like the idea that, well, all are welcome, it's God's table, you know, you don't have to be baptized. There's no basic requirement to receive the Eucharist, right? Like it's God's table, all are welcome, right? And I have reservations about that. I get where I get the impulse. Like I understand. It's like it's this idea of like all belong, you know, there's radical inclusivity. I get that. But I do think that there has to be a point where we say, no, you actually do have to be at the minimum, have professed your faith in baptism, right, or be baptized as an infant, either way, you know, in which case your parents do it on your behalf, right, and then promise to raise and form you in the in a church, um to receive the sacrament of Christ's body and blood. Um and I think that if we truly believe uh one of the church fathers, and maybe you can help remind me, I believe, it could have been maybe not a church father. I can look it up if you don't know it, but said that basically that the Eucharist the the bread and the wine is the body of Christ for those who have the faith, and for those who don't, it's just bread and bread and wine. And I thought that was such a fascinating comment. So do you do you remember who that was?

SPEAKER_03 59:09

Or I don't off the top of my head. Okay, but I do want to say that welcome is actually the perfect word because the etymology of the word welcome is um is Germanic and will comes from will meaning desire or wit or will. And Cuma is a someone who someone who comes, right? So is a guest who comes. So desire, welcome is the des well is the desire that we have to have the guest who's willing to come, right? Like welcome is a perfect word. It doesn't have anything to do with tolerating.

SPEAKER_01 59:49

Right.

SPEAKER_03 59:50

You know, it's ridiculous. Yeah.

unknown 59:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 59:52

It's it's anyway, uh yes, all are welcome. I am gonna stand with that, not only because it's our tradition, but because it's a perfect word. It's perfect.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:01

I think it really is perfect. I think it is perfect because it really does also communicate that you know, all are welcome and you don't have to come. Uh, and there's an opportunity to those who do come to grow in faith and love with Christ Jesus. Yeah. And I think that it sends the wrong message. It's like, oh, we'll just take you as you are, which we do, we take you as you are, but then we form you in the faith, not we take you as you are, and you're already a full member the day you walk through the door. Because if that's the case, what are we really offering people?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:40

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:41

If we're not offering them the transformation through the cross, we were just talking about Lint, right? The opportunity to live through that experience alongside Jesus. If we're not offering them that transformative experience, yeah, why should they come here? They can just get affirmed that they belong in every other part of our society.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:01

Yeah, amen. Hey, I've got to pause it for a second.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:03

Oh, go ahead, go ahead.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:09

Well, amen to all that. Now, I feel like I want I want to know what percentage of these folks who are making these decisions about all of these changes, like changing the all are welcome slogan or changing the prayer book and adding all this stuff. I want to know what percentage of those folks are lifelong Episcopalians, like cradle Episcopalians, or how long they've been in the Episcopal Church. I know we have a lot of clergy, we've had such a clergy shortage that we've got a lot of clergy coming in from the Methodist church, from the Lutheran church. Um and just makes me wonder, like, where are the you know, where are these ideas coming from? Um and I would say if you haven't been in the church that long, perhaps you haven't been um formed enough by our liturgy, our common liturgy, to truly understand the importance of the tradition and the and and what it is offering, you know, that it is for everyone, that it is common. So I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

I'm just no, I think you do know. I think you just said it.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:23

I'm just kind of I'm just irritated by the whole thing because we've got a generation of folks that have decided that um, or a few generations of people that have decided that okay, well, right now is the time and we're just gonna wipe everything out and change everything, right? We've got um and and for what you are gonna die for people, right? You guys are gonna die, and then what are we leaving our children and our grandchildren and our great grandchildren? What tradition, what are they gonna be able to look to and say, Oh, that's what my great grandmother did? You know? Like I can say my grandmother brought us into the Episcopal church that the Episcopal church that we went to and I got to be an acolyte in, and that it was it was the same, essentially, it's the same liturgy that I was saying as a child that I'm saying today because we've we've held on to that. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

Well, and it's it's over I mean it was the literal first English liturgy translated directly from the uh Latin Tridentine Mass.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:44

Yeah, yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

It's it's it's a 2,000-year-old mass, really, and just happens to be the first English translation, but yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:54

Yeah. And I'm I'm sorry. I just what are my grandchildren or my great-grandchildren, which doesn't seem that far off now that I'm a grandmother, um what are they gonna be able to say about our new prayer book that is probably eventually coming? You know, what are they gonna and I'm sure people have this argument, you know, when it comes to any revision of the prayer book. Like there's still 28 prayer book congregations. Um but I don't just I I feel like we've got to hold on to this thing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

Well, I think that um to me any prayer book revision at this point I would I would view with some degree of suspicion. Uh and I think we have to I think we have to take a step back because I think your dad would be such a great person to have on, because his explanation for why we have to keep some of the gendered language in the prayer book and in the Bible in general, like why that actually matters both historically and when we're reading the Bible from front to back and back to front and every other way, because it ties everything together from their understanding of prophecy in the beginning. It actually makes the prophecies make sense. Like one of the things that I learned from your dad was like if you take out the gendered language and you um and you make everything gender neutral, it actually uh has the old testament point to Jesus a lot less. And so right now, the way it's always been, you know, the way it's uh written and the way it's always been read is with the gendered language, it actually points pretty clearly to Jesus. I think if you read it, you know, like the Old Testament is really um presages Jesus in at least 80 to 90 different places. And the thing is, is if you take out the gendered language in the Old Testament, like that number goes way down. Um and so you're actually robbing future generations of the opportunity to see that connection between you know God's plan ultimately from the very beginning was always for Jesus to come and. You know, be sacrificed on the cross and die. And you know, that's one of the interesting things I think about. I thought a lot about this Lint is like Judas is such an interesting character, right? Because it's like Jesus knows that what he's done. And it's like he had to do what he did. It was like he was fulfilling this like role that was preordained in a way for him. And he feels so horrible about it. He commits suicide. But like, I think it was maybe my son asked me, it's like, what? It's like, what's the deal with Judas? Because like, and I know that like the historical position of the Roman church has been like, oh, Jesus, Judas is roasting in hell, right? For what this horrible thing that he did. And I'm like, and it's funny because Pope Francis was like, I don't really know, you know, and then Pope Leo is now back to like, no, no, no, he's definitely roasting in hell. And I'm like, I just don't know, you know, like I don't know where Judas is. I weren't gonna say that because you know, I'm really clear that like Jesus is like, one of you is gonna betray me, or you know, and and and Judas knows it's him, and he Jesus knows it's Judas, and it's really super clear if you really read it. And it's like, and then he repents, he gives the money back, you know, tries to reconcile himself with the whole situation, can't, and ultimately commit suicide. Really fascinating. I mean, you know, some people would say just because he committed suicide, he's in trouble in terms of possibility of salvation, but I don't know if I agree with that either. So I don't know. I mean, to me, I think that it's a really interesting question. Um, and I I just don't know. I wonder. I wonder. Yeah, because without Judas, how do you get to the how do you get to the cross?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:33

And if you don't get to the cross, how do you get to the resurrection, right?

SPEAKER_03 1:08:37

So yeah, right, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:40

It's I feel the same way about Pontius Pilate. I'm like, if you know, but for Pontius Pilate, and I I heard something recently that like in the early church, Pontius Pilate, some part of the early church, Pontius Pilate was actually considered like a convert. He was he was like an early convert to Christianity, and and some people even consider him to be a saint because of how he his role was like necessary in in the the passion and resurrection. I thought that was interesting. I was like, I don't know if I'd go so far as to call him a saint, but he definitely had like a purposeful role in the whole thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:09:15

Yeah. And um absolutely well, what I love, I mean, what I love about that too is okay, so on Palm Sunday I was the subdeacon, and my you know reading, the part that I wrote, uh read was the part of Pontius Pilate. That was, you know, because we kind of it I don't know. We acted out. We kind of acted out in a way, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And um, you know, pilots like this is on you. This is on y'all. Like, I'm I'm washing my hands. I'm washing my hands with this. This is on you. This is what you guys want, it's gonna keep you guys calm. Go for it, right? Like he's um he's saying he's not complicit. Right? That's what he's saying. So I don't know. I I kind of wanted to go back for a second to the book of common prayer rant because one of my favorite one of my favorite parts of the liturgy is that we have confession right before we have the passing of the peace. Right? And so we confess as a group. It's not my personal confession, it's that we acknowledge and bewail our sins, right? And when we were talking about needing to change the church so it can meet people where they are, we are meeting people where they are. We are saying that we are sinning, we're confessing things that we've done and things that we've left undone. We are repenting of those things, right? And right after that prayer, we stand up and we greet our neighbors and we say, the peace of the Lord be with you, right? It's such a cool juxtaposition. And I would argue that the Book of Common Prayer is meeting people where they are. I do not think we need to change it. I do not think we need to have inclusive language. I do not think that we need to have, you know, experimental services so that people can feel like it's meeting them where they are. We need stability right now in a fragmented world, in a culture that is constantly changing. People want stability and something to hold on to. And our liturgy is remarkably stable and has stood the test of time. And what does that offer people today? It offers you roots, it offers continuity and spiritual grounding. And the danger of trying to change with the culture is that we are going to lose our beautiful ability to have the prayer book, our common prayer, be our most powerful tool for spiritual formation. If worship stops, if the worship stops forming people, it becomes more about preference or personal identity or personal expression. What gets lost?

SPEAKER_00 1:12:47

Yeah, what gets lost is that opportunity for formation, exactly what you're saying. Yeah. And I think to me, I think there's a there's a clear dividing line, right? I think all our welcome is the right posture because it basically says, look, our goal is to include ultimately everyone. We want everyone to be included in this, everyone to have an access to it, everyone to have an opportunity for it, and everyone to belong to it. Absolutely. But it's not like, you know, uh, I think that it's it's like however you are, however you come to it is fine. But then don't think that you aren't going to be changed through the experience. Because if you're not gonna get changed and transformed through that experience, right, then you're not um then why are you here, right? So, you know, you bring up something interesting. I just want to, it's a little aside, but about it's about the communal confession of sins. This is actually something which is super old. I mean, we're talking 1900 years old. The Dietechy, which is one of the earliest church order texts, usually dated to like the first or second century, and it tells Christians to gather together on the Lord's Day, break bread, and give thanks after having confessed your transgressions. Um, and then what's interesting is that it actually shows up as part of the written Mass in the Roman Mass uh as early as like the eighth century. And then what's funny is that it was through, uh, and of course, it's been, you know, it's it's been in as part of the Anglican tradition since the very beginning of the English translations that we've done from that that Roman Mass. What's so interesting is they've gotten away from doing that in the Roman church, and they actually, there was some evangelization that happened actually out of Ireland. Um, there were some Irish monks and uh evangelists that basically came out of Ireland down to the continent and evangelized individual confession with the priest, right? Basically, like you need to go get your sins confessed directly one-on-one with the priest, you know, and make sure you're in a state of grace before you before you take the Eucharist, which is to this day actually the what they do in the Roman Catholic Church. There is no communal confession of sin. I actually heard about this. I had a conversation with my cousin about it, uh, it's like two days ago, because he was wondering like, you know, if I've not been to confession, can I come to the Anglican church and and take the Eucharist? Um and I so I had to kind of explain to him uh communal confession, the congregation confesses our sins together as part of the worship, and that that's actually the older tradition that is dates back to the very, very earliest parts of the church as opposed to this this one-on-one confession thing, it's really an innovation.

SPEAKER_03 1:15:57

Yeah, so just a relevant aside. That's really cool. Um well, I wanted to answer the question of what gets lost. Right? Okay, right. We were talking about what it what gets lost when if we stop having our traditional worship and we get rid of we ditch the book of common prayer, you know, and it's all about personal identity and expression and all of that. So Hooker, what are our three our three-legged stool in our Anglican tradition is scripture, tradition, and reason. So what are we uh what are we losing? Uh first of all, when we change uh the liturgy, we change scripture. We lose scripture. If we have inclusive language, we we lose it. It's just like what you said. It doesn't point to the pro like it doesn't point to the Jesus Christ. The prophets are not pointing to Jesus Christ. There's an argument for that if you change to inclusive language. So we lose scripture. Tradition. I don't even think that needs an explanation. It's so shallow, it's so new that there's no tradition. And reason. We have an identity as Anglicans, we have an identity as Episcopalians. We have reasoned that identity through decades and and and millennials and hundreds of years, centuries of reasoning. That's our three-legged stool. What do we have left? If we lose that, our foundation, that's what I think we're losing.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:47

Yeah. And I think for me as an inclusive orthodox, like the way I see liturgical revision for, let's say, LGBT inclusion is like, okay, great. So we need to have an option to say he and he or she and she in the in the marriage right. But that's the only difference. That's the only change. You don't need to redo the whole thing. You don't need to like use all this inclusive language throughout the whole thing, or like try to pretend like God is, you know, just use she pronouns for God or they, them pronouns for God, or you know, you know. I mean, I I heard um this uh this candidate, uh, this guy, James Telarico, who's currently running for um the senator in Texas, right? He makes the claim that God is non-binary, which I which I find hilarious because it's like God God doesn't have any gender at all. God is not non-binary, God doesn't have any gender at all. The the point is that we use gendered language because of the historical context in which all of this was arising, because, and I'm gonna give a short, very short explanation, which I know your dad would do so much better, but um basically that in the Hellenistic world, the you had the pantheon, right, of all the Greek and Roman gods and goddesses. Yeah, and in their worldview and their conception and their understanding of of the universe, male gods could beget other gods, yeah, which was which begetting was different from creation, because when you have a one god begetting another god, they are of the same substance, homo usius, right? Same substance. Whereas when you have um you have a god that's creating something, so both male and female gods and goddesses could create, but that is of a different substance. So they were creating something like you know, things out in the world, but those were not of the same substance as those gods, right? Those were different things. And so the importance of having you know an understanding of using masculine pronouns is not because God is masculine, but because understanding it in that framework, you needed to have the masculine pronouns be applied so that you could have the son eternally begotten of the father, right? Because that actually made sense for you know the time in which it was uh in which it was written. The other thing I would say is that there's a reason why um Christ came at the time he came. And I think that that's something which gets minimized by our culture and our and maybe even our church to some degree. I heard a really interesting Tom Holland was giving an interview on trigonometry, which is a fun podcast. Um really interesting truth-seeking podcast. I like it. Um, don't always agree with everything they come up with, but I I I like their the way they think through things is 100% on point. Um and um Tom Holland, who's this really great modern um uh historian, has basically made this point. Uh, and he doesn't just, you know, I say modern, in other words, he's still alive, right? That's what I meant by modern. He does his history throughout, I think, like uh the time we're talking about is kind of his area of focus, the Roman Empire, etc. And he says, like, he says, I don't think that if but for the Roman Empire, Christianity would not have spread the way that it did. And I thought that was such an interesting comment because I was like, oh, maybe that's why Jesus came when he came, because it was like the right time for his message to have the absolute maximal impact. And he talks more about this in this podcast. I encourage you guys to listen to it because it talks about Christianity and Islam and the, you know, kind of that that cultural conflict that's been going on for several hundred years. But um, inside of that, he makes that claim, and I was like, oh wow, that's really cool to think about that. That was, you know, that was part of the plan essentially. And I think that part of that is like, well, okay, so you come in sort of into this Hellenistic worldview, you come in with this understanding that, well, I'm not only fulfilling on all these ancient Jewish prophecies, but I'm also, you know, that linguistically it has to fit with the Hellenistic worldview of the people that we're going to be spreading it to, which is that male gods, you know, male gods beget other gods. And you you remember the stories of like Athena popping out of Zeus's head, right? Like that's that's like begetting, right? It's like it's it's like part of Zeus popping off and becoming another god, but really like they're of the same substance, right? It's super clear. It's not like oh, hera is not giving birth to this this baby, right? It's like it's it's literally coming out of the father, which is which is really thinking fascinating when you think about it. And anyway, but that's um that's what I think about when I think about the importance of a gendered language and understanding all of that in context of when the Bible was written, when Jesus came, and the worldview of what was going on at the time.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:05

Yeah, that's really cool because in the Nicene Creed, which is arguably the most common and foundational creed in Christendom, we say we believe in Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father. Eternally begotten. It's not begotten once. Eternally. So, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:44

Well, I think you can you can you can actually interpret that two different ways. You can say that the way I often think of it is like Jesus, like the moment that God comes into existence, God the Father begets Jesus Christ. Like there's not there's not any daylight between them, you know. Well, that's the weird thing, is because there's not a point when God the Father comes into existence. So actually, I'm gonna take that back. I'm gonna say that basically that Jesus, so I think the theology that's correct is that God has always existed, and that as God the Father has always existed, so has God the Son and so has God the Holy Spirit. They are all eternally begotten of the Father, which is to say that there's not at any point where God wakes up one morning, God the Father wakes up one morning and says, Well, I'm gonna beget Jesus today, right? It's like, no, this is something, these all three persons have always existed. And I think that that is one of the most challenging things to to really wrap your head around as a Christian. Um, but it's it's one of the most essential, you know, dogma of of the faith.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:47

Absolutely. God from God, like from like yeah, true God from true God, begotten, not me. Okay. Of one being.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:02

Yeah, of one being, and actually the the older version says of one substance, which is actually a more direct translation from the Greek. Right. Yeah. That's so cool.

SPEAKER_03 1:25:12

Well, we're coming up on time.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:14

Um we are, and I just want to say one more thing because Paul Tillik refers to God as the ground of all being, and so that's why I think the being translation also works, because it's like if God is basically being and no being exists but for God, then uh it makes sense that they would be of the same being as well. But then I would kind of say, well, aren't we all of the same being then to some degree? And I think we are in Jesus Christ. I actually I like Paul Tillich's framing, and we can talk more about this another time, but he basically frames it so that God the Father is the transcendent God. He has kind of a panentheistic view of God, which is that God the Father is transcendent, um, Jesus Christ is the God of humanity, and the Holy Spirit is the God in creation. And I think that that's a really um interesting framing, which I resonate with personally. Um, it's not the orthodox framing, I'll admit that. But I am a big fan of Paul to like when it comes to his because it he made the Trinity make sense to me in a way that it never had as a child. Because I was, I remember as a kid, I was like, wait, wait, so is is Jesus God's son or is he God? And of course the answer is both, right? But like as a kid, you're like, what? Right? So anyway, if you haven't read him before, Paul Tillich, great, I believe, Lutheran theologian, actually. Um you're wrong about that. I want to say that's right. German American, yeah, Google says German American philosopher, but I believe he was a kind of an Orthodox Lutheran theologian of the um 20th century.

SPEAKER_03 1:26:57

Let's take four minutes and say, as a practical matter, if someone wanted to begin being formed by the Episcopal Anglican liturgy, where would you tell them to start?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:14

Well, I'm a big fan of Rite One, if you can find it. Uh so for those who don't know our prayer book, we have Rite One and Right Two, which Rite One is the is the sort of more traditional Anglican liturgy, which has existed for 500 years, right? Um Rite II is the post-Vatican II sort of more ecumenical attempts to basically um come closer to the Roman novus ordo, which I'm not as crazy about. Um what I would say is that we do have some really good Eucharistic prayers in there. Eucharistic prayer D in particular is a very ancient, probably the most ancient, uh, in there because it comes from the Greek tradition. So, you know, one of the things I love about our church, which again, I'm not saying where it is or what it is, but it we use a we use right one and we use a lot of Eucharistic prayer D. And I would say, so look for a church that uses a lot of right one or or right two Eucharistic prayer D, because that's likely to be a more orthodox. Um again, by orthodox, I'm not saying conservative. I'm just saying that they believe uh, but really, and we should actually probably have a whole episode where we talk about orthodoxy, but I'm gonna say it in one sentence, which is a belief that, as St. Vincent Loran said, that we must adhere to the things that have been present at all. Times and in all places in the history of the church. And that is to me what orthodoxy is. If it's something that's always been true, you know, at all points, and we've sort of had broad agreement on, then that's orthodoxy. And then what you find is you have people that are, you know, in the last 15, 20 years trying to come up with stuff that frankly is far outside the bounds of what has always been true. And I think that's where we have to start to push back. And um and again, I'm not saying we can't ever grow and change as a church. I think that that's why the church exists. I think if the if if the if the goal was to stay completely static, then it's like, why have a church? Why have a living, breathing body of Christ? Why have a living, breathing bride of Christ? If we're just gonna just be completely like exactly the same as we were 2,000 years ago. Um at the same time, you know, everything we do that's different has to be in alignment with everything that came before, otherwise you lose everything that came before, in which case it's the collapse of the tradition. And and so what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03 1:29:47

Right. Right. Well, I would say if someone wanted to be formed by our our worship, I would say come and see. I would also say that if you wind up in an Episcopal church and you go in there and you don't agree with everything that is being said by the priests or the way they formed their new liturgy, be patient. Be patient. Or go and try and find a right one church like you're talking about.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:29

Um that's the other thing I would say. You know, I I'm on sometimes Reddit and stuff, or not Reddit, but um Discord and a lot of different places. Um, and I'll see like uh even YouTube comments, and I'll see people say, Oh, I can't find a church that's Orthodox anywhere near me. It's like, well, first of all, you're not looking hard enough because I found Orthodox churches in like, you know, the Bay Area. And for those who don't know, the Diocese of California, which is where the Bay Area is, is like probably the most progressive diocese in the country, but they still have uh what I would call broad church parishes, which are basically, you know, largely orthodox communities of people who, you know, yeah, you're gonna have people there who are LGBT, sure. I mean, it's the Bay Area, but theologically they are more conservative. And that's something that I think is a common misunderstanding is people think, oh, if someone's theologically conservative, that must mean that they're a Republican. And that's not true. You know, you can absolutely be theologically conservative, which means you believe in tradition, you believe in the authority of scripture, and you know, politically, maybe you're a progressive. And that's something I want to talk about more in the future, too. We will talk more about that for sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:31:47

Absolutely. It's uh it does seem to be a theme. I mean, the being theologically conservative versus being politically conservative, that's a whole thing that we I think we've talked about a little bit, is how there's a Venn diagram of how that overlaps. But um, the are when you say conservative in a theological sense, um it doesn't necessarily mean politically conservative. And we need to we need to separate those two ideas. Um the Episcopal Church and the Greater Anglican Communion, it doesn't just give us ideas, you know, it it gives us practices that shape who we become. And that's what I want to leave us with. And and I look forward to talking next time um having some more deeper conversations about this.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:43

All right, but before we go, I want to give you my update uh from Houston.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:47

Oh, give me the update from Houston, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:50

Yeah, so um I went to two different churches. I went to St. Martin's, which is like this giant cathedral-sized church, and we went to the evening service because we missed the morning one, both both of these times. We're on vacation, you know, vacation time. We're gonna we'll we'll we'll see at 5 or 6 p.m., right? Um, so we went to their, I believe it was the 6 p.m., and it was beautiful. Um, it was uh, you know, my wife had the experience, it was a right one. Um, they actually used the even the traditional wording of the Nicene Creed, which I hadn't done in a while. Um and um, you know, my wife had the feeling of like, oh, it's kind of impersonal, you know, nobody really came up to us and you know introduced themselves or anything like that. And to me, I'm like, yeah, that's kind of like going to a cathedral. I mean, that's basically what that is. But I mean, it was if you if your goal is to kind of go in, go out, be anonymous, and experience, you know, a high church liturgy, absolutely St. Mark's St. Martin's in in Houston would be recommended. And then we also went to the next the following Sunday, we went to Church of the Holy Spirit uh in Houston, and we went to their five o'clock, and we initially couldn't find it because we went to the sanctuary and it wasn't there. So I was like, ah, but I mean it's on their website. Surely they would have said something if they weren't gonna have it this week. So I kind of rooted around the campus and I found that they're in the parish hall. So, okay, so then we I got everybody, and it was the it was the most amazing experience because once I told the priest, hey, we're gonna, we're here, I just I couldn't find it. They actually waited for us to come back to start to start the service. Because I mean, it's you know, maybe there were like 15 people, right? It's a small, small service. But I said, I've got to go get my family. And he was like, okay, no worries. And then they actually waited, and when we arrived, they started. And it was it's no music. Apparently, they used to have music, but they stopped doing it during COVID. And they said they told me that um it was an opportunity for fellowship, more fellowship, because they get through with the service sooner. And so it was, it was a shorter service, uh, certainly right too, but very, you know, reverent. And um, and then the fellowship was amazing. I mean, they had this cart of like food that was probably four to five times more food than they could have possibly consumed. And then what was so amazing to me is literally like at least half of the group that had come for the service stayed for at least an hour afterwards talking and eating. And I mean, these these guys do fellowship right at Holy Spirit. So it was the exact opposite experience in that regard. Um, we stayed and talked with the priest. Um, I want to say his name was Michael, and he originally came from Dallas, um, but he's now there at Holy Spirit. Um, I should have looked up his name. But anyway, he was amazing. He's their, he's actually their curate right now. And we had a great conversation with him. And you know, by the end, we were joking with each other, and it was just a very um, and I I kind of I said to my um, I said to my wife on the way home, I said, you know who that guy reminded me of? And I thought, yeah, I feel like I said, I feel like that guy reminds me of something, you know, the the the priest. And I kind of thought about it. I couldn't figure out who it reminded me of, and then it just popped in my head. I said, He reminded me of Jesus. And I actually started tearing up a little bit. Um yeah, it was just really like that experience of meeting somebody who was just um very clearly. He he told us his whole life story, which I'm not gonna get into here. Maybe we'll have him on sometime. That would be fun.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:30

Um, but um yeah, just a really moving experience going and being part of that very tight-knit community and the way that they welcomed us was I felt very welcomed, not like I was an unwanted guest at all, like I was a very wanted guest.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:47

So I could just say that, and we my kids were the only kids there, and they were being, they were making noise, and at one point they were going to the back, and you know, and everybody was 100% great about it, you know. So I just think that people underestimate um the degree to which our welcoming is real, and that we truly do uh practice that and and believe in that. And wherever I go, that's how I feel. Um, me too.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:14

Every church, every episcopal church I've visited, um, I felt very welcomed into the church. Um yeah, so that's that's great. All right. Well, let us go forth.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:30

And in the name of Christ, I'm in.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:32

Amen. I'll see you later.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:40

I'm Dr. Ryan Bartovi.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:42

And I am Ann Jambohr. See you soon.